Hey everyone,
Got a question about converting BTC to cash in the EU. I'm reaching out for some fresh insights after digging through the threads here.
I've been holding onto some BTC for nearly a decade now, with a few detours into altcoins back in the day.
Lately, I've just been holding on tightly.
Here’s where it gets tricky:
Most of my BTC was bought with cash from an ATM for under 1000 euros. The catch is, I don’t have any receipts or proof of purchase, and I’ve mostly kept them in various hardware wallets over time. The coins have switched wallets a bunch, and I don’t have all the transaction details from then to now. I do have some records from old exchanges, but it’s not a complete story.
That said, I think I can access my 'original' hardware wallet. Being a privacy advocate, I also mixed some coins a few years back.
Now I’m in a position where I reluctantly need to cash out some to keep warm this winter. I need to get the money into a bank account for bills, so I’m not looking for cash deals through p2p.
From what I gather, banks usually aren’t too happy about this situation.
What are my choices? Anyone here done something similar and have tips on how to handle this properly?
If I go through a bank, what kind of proof would they ask for in this case? How can I 'prove ownership' and what’s the process like with both the bank and tax authorities?
Any legal advice, useful resources, links, or info would be super appreciated. I’m based in the EU.
Also, if you know of any tech tools that could help me sort out my transaction history safely, that’d be awesome.
Thanks, everyone!
An interesting conundrum and personally also I have a similar situation - in the future at least.
It may well be worth looking at which exchanges are based in your particular country and see what the particular regulations are.
Dont rule out P2P- if you can get cash in hand, perhaps this help out with many of the other every day expenses( obviously be careful).
Anyway good luck
This has been discussed many times in this section and I myself opened a thread about it. The answer will depend on how much we are talking about, because it is not the same 10k than 1M.
If we are talking about 1M is better to look for a tax advisor, there are ways to legalize it without paying practically nothing by creating a company in a third country that gives you a loan and things like that. I say it by hearsay but there are solutions for large capitals.
For more moderate amounts, with P2P, Bitcoin ATMs or things like that you have the problem solved, besides depositing moderate amounts of cash in your bank will not raise alarms, but I think yours is the first case, because 1k bought 10 years ago must have become a large capital, so spend the money in a specialized tax advisor who will have much better tax avoidance strategies than what we can tell you here.
Looking to cash as little as possible but that would be anywhere up to 30 or 40 within the next year.
I reside in a country where there is a high chance that no capital gains taxes are charged, however I'm not trying to evade taxes or anything of the sort.
I don't even mind paying the taxes if need be, but of course will fight like a honeybadger to not be treated unfairly and I'm very interested in optimization strategies, so will dig in.
I think most useful information for me at this point would be to know how people,
let's say libertarian-minded folk have dealt with this issue in different jurisdictions.
P2P options are always there I understand, but in my case I really need to figure out an on-ramp to get the funds 'online'.
Optimization options are interesting so far as they are legal, but I don't want to even be seen to try to set up elaborate structures just to cash in
something that I legally own. But a company set-up strategy that benefits the actual company in some significant way is an interesting thought,
so thanks for the hint, I'll look into it and will read through your thread.
At the same time I don't want to step into some legal anti-personnel mine just for being ignorant, so I gotta study about the risk-profile in the legal sense,
because the systems that govern are very unforgiving as I'm sure many of us have experienced first hand. There's very little sympathy out there.
So it's all about making a well-reasoned calculated move.
Thanks for quick replies and wishes, I'll dig around more and check out the ideas mentioned,
I'll follow up when I know better to spread the word.
I'm sure everyone in the same situation understands the spirit.
We are in the early stages, keep up the spirit!
Anybody reading this with ideas, come forth and show us the way, stir the pot!
There is just about no way to do it non KYC, and I will go so far as to say as the time and effort you will put into trying to, and what tend to be worse exchange rates is probably not worth it.
However, and since I don't know where you live, as a general piece of advice if you don't mind some non direct KYC, there is always the form a business option.
Business takes in the BTC converts to fiat and then pays you a salary. Probably a bunch more of tax implications doing that but at that point all you are is an employee.
Everything else non KYC is going to be a lot more time consuming and convoluted and may cost you even more.
Side thought, is there a version of consfer.com where you live? Might be worth a search.
-Dave
So you purchased some btc in 2013 at 800 eur.
lets say it was five coins.
they are worth 5x16= 80000 eur.
so put 4 in a trezor wallet.
and kyc the other coin for 16000 eur.
it is the easiest way.
Not happy to KYC on some of the funds, but I can do it if need be.
My main question is what constitutes as 'I own these', when there are no receipts or documentation, bank transactions or anything.
I understand things differ depending on jurisdictions, but it's all new to me.
But even KYC doesn't work when the banks refuse transactions from exchanges and they demand proof of initial purchase to the final transaction.
What a headache.
By the way, does anyone know the legality of P2P transactions? Is it legal to buy and sell BTC for cash from a random person in your jurisdiction?
I read something about having to go through an authorised, legalized entity.
By 'business takes in the BTC' do you mean I set a business or hook up with an existing one?
And if I set up a business, how would the business get hold of the BTC and convert them to cash? Don't they run into the same issue?
I reside in the Netherlands.
If you still have access to the wallets you used in the past, you have documentation in the form of blockchain transactions. When you sell coins on an exchange, you have documentation in the form of the trade history. Just make sure the exchange account is registered to your name.
I never ran into a detailed proof of fund request from an exchange, so I can't tell what those entail. Anecdotal experiences on the German boards vary wildly.
I did have to answer a detailed proof of fund request from a bank though (and another one that wasn't so thorough, but didn't need to be because they straight up told me they'd close my account if I'd received other cryptocurrency related bank transactions in the future). Besides screenshots to proof the ownership of and the trades on my exchange accounts I also provided them with a couple of Bitcoin addresses that were related to the coins I sold. Some were pretty straightforward documented (KYC coins), some not so much (P2P trades). However even the latter didn't result in much of a problem since they each separately were low Euro volume at the time of trade (maybe a few hundred Euro each), ie. the Bitcoin transactions as recorded on the blockchain were sufficient since you can tell the exchange rate based on the timestamp. Some transactions I couldn't quite reconstruct, but again, low volume, at the time, so negligible. However I also hadn't mixed those coins. So that might be tricky. If you still have records of the coins you sent in versus the coins you got out, that might suffice if you still have a somewhat reasonable source for the coins that went into the mixer.
Your mileage may vary wildly though. In that one case I got lucky that the bank had a compliance officer that was somewhat familiar with cryptocurrencies. Other banks I've dealt with were not quite as friendly. The EU may provide the guidelines with how to handle cryptocurrency-related transactions, but different banks have different policies on how to implement those guidelines.
About creating a company for cashing out Bitcoin profits: I'd be careful with that. First of all, you may not actually get tax benefits (eg. in Germany you don't have to pay taxes on the profits if you hold for a year as a private person, but a company would have to make these profits part of their earnings). Second, a company selling Bitcoin may itself warrant deeper scrutiny. And third, in my experience banks that don't want private accounts receiving transactions from Bitcoin sales, also don't want business accounts receiving transactions from Bitcoin sales. Again, your mileage may vary.
The legality of P2P transactions varies between the EU countries. Eg. in Germany it doesn't seem to be legal anymore while in Austria I believe it still is. The regulations have changed over time though, so I'm not sure what the current state is.
If you're in the EU then there are probably some businesses around with offices in the Balkan states that will exchange small amounts (let's say hundreds OR thousands) of euros for you in exchange for crypto in there, face-to-face (and without KYC). Maybe you can inquire around and ask for information about them.
I will write to you 3 ways to change bitcoins in Russia.
You can exchange bitcoins for fiat at the office, but this may not be safe.
Another way is to send cryptocurrencies and in return receive a QR code that can be used to withdraw money from an ATM. Safu, but the limit is 500-1000 dollars for 1 time.
Legalization. You register as a self-employed freelancer and change cryptocurrency to your accounts in Perfect Money, PayPal, Advanced Cash, Skrill, Payeer, Neteller and other payment systems.
https://www.bestchange.com/
I dont know how legal and risky it is in your country, but if you are asked where the money comes from, then you will say that you provided consultations and other services for money, and paid taxes on profits.
You can easily convert upto 100,000 euros worth of bitcoin per annum via p2p exchanges like LBC. And you no need to worry about the proof of income as long as you keep the trade limit under less than thousand euros for a trade.
You can pass level 2 verification with your national ID KYC, and find the reliable traders with high trust score and trading volume.
Let's say you convert about 900 euros per trade. Apart from being a pain in the ass, transferring 900 euros 111 times to your account in the same fiscal year can set off alarm bells as well. It would set them off automatically if you transfer the $100k in one but the sum of very small amounts passing a threshold, depending on the country, also sets them off.
You are right if these transfers are to one bank account. Above I wrote a list of payment systems. If you, your wife and other relatives register in these payment systems and receive 4-7 transfers per year, then perhaps such amounts will not be tracked by the tax authorities.
Utilizing localmonero is one option, but it can be time-consuming and has high fees. Use of the decentralized LibertyTown market is a comparable strategy. You switch between a BTC to PCASH, and then PCASH to bank account. Utilizing this strategy has the benefit of maintaining your anonymity.
I'm not sure if the OP is looking for that kind of service, but the truth is that there are physical exchange offices where you can sell or buy up to approximately 2000 EUR per transaction without KYC (fee around 5%) and since there are many of them, you can easily make several such transactions a day. However, the problem is that this money still has no origin and that it is not desirable to deposit it in a bank account, but to spend it on some things that do not attract too much attention.
However, I think that this will also change, especially in the countries that are within the EU and there are increasing pressures that not a single crypto transaction is carried out without KYC.
Banks are sometimes a bigger headache than the risk involved in Peer to Peer transactions. If I was in your situation I would find a place to withdraw a few thousand per month, like three to four times more than monthly expenses to cover following months too, and withdraw once maybe every yearly quarter.
If that money really needs to be in my bank. I would do Peer to Peer trades and deposit to my bank account the following days. But not the same amount I traded. If I sold 2k worth of Bitcoin I would deposit like under 1k probably so transactions are even less likely to be linked. Many banks hate large earnings for some reason. And they hate Bitcoin even more. If you suddenly get a few tens of thousands in your bank then expect to be questioned.
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Regards,
PrivacyG
In which country do you live in? If it's one with a tax framework on cryptocurrencies, you're safe to cash out some thousands, if you're willing to pay the tax. I don't believe there's a direct answer to your question, though. Usually, it's fine. You can call this capital appreciation (and it is, indeed) and you'll be fine.
I recommend you asking your local board for a bank that doesn't ask for further info, to have less troubles.
First, would be nice to know where in EUR you're residing as local laws in many EU countries may differ. In many (most) countries there's a maximum non-taxable amount of around 40k EUR. I believe your bills will be smaller than that amount?
You could use a crypto debit card (Binance, Coinbase, Wirex etc.) or p2p local exchange to withdraw and then there are ATM where you can deposit funds to your account with no questions asked. If you keep the amounts reasonable, that won't be a red flag for your bank.
If the OP wants to do it in his country, then the only correct advice is to send an inquiry to the local authorities and explain his situation to them. As I wrote in the previous post, there are other completely legal ways to do it in some other EU countries without involving banks, CEX and without KYC.