Dutch tax exiles: where to go?

I'm bringing this up in Reputation since it kinda touches on how countries are viewed. If there's a better spot for it, just let me know and I can move it. Taxes Look, I get it, taxes are part of life and I’m not against paying them. But there’s gotta be a limit. I handle my crypto taxes so I can actually use my crypto later without issues. We used to have a 1.2% wealth tax, but that was against EU rules. Now we’re looking at around 2% yearly, which is pretty high, but at least there’s no extra tax on actual gains. So, it’s about 2% on the total value of what I own, every year. Plus the usual income tax. And with the new Dutch tax plans for 2028, we're facing a whopping 36% tax on unrealized gains. Honestly, I feel like I might end up losing a ton to taxes if I stick around, which leaves me with no choice but to consider moving out before that happens. I’ve got some time, but figuring out the best move and getting everything sorted before 2027 is gonna be tough. The issue If my investments go up during the year, I have to cash out some to cover taxes. If I sell on January 1st and the rest appreciate again, I’m getting taxed on that bump next year too. If I hold off a few months and the value takes a hit, I’m stuck with the loss and still owe taxes. It seems like the whole world thinks this approach is pretty messed up, even the Dutch House of Representatives is against it, but they still pushed the law through since they want those billions in tax revenue.

Short answer? Germany! Probably the only other real option left in the EU that will not be that much different to your lifestyle, Denmark is a no-go tax-wise. Your biggest problem is not the 10 or 15%, it's the kids! You will pay 10%, for example, in Bulgaria how you mentioned, do you want your kids to grow up there compared to the Netherlands? You think they will have the same future, you think they will like it? And if they do not adapt, are you that willing to take the blame for it? I have dual citizenship, I have lived in 3 countries and family was always the problem, despite all those 3 countries sharing borders and just having a 300- 600 km drive, but since my kid is growing up and making friends here I will not be moving anymore, I know how hard it was for me changing towns and schools I don't want to do this to him also. Second problem, you have no way of knowing the country you move to won't do the same, what then? If you were a 20-30yo freelancer with a backpack and nothing in your name, the answers would have been easy, with family and kids, how do I put this, maybe you need to ask the ones that matter to you most first what they want! --- To be honest, I would go with foreign residency, if the amount you save is substantial, you can also fake enough economic activities in the country you choose to have that residency so that the Dutch tax office will leave you alone even if you spend most of the time still at home, not completely legal, not without risks but better than moving with everything you have there.

I thought you were Swiss. Now I feel betrayed. Dutch huh... They went crazy with the unrealized capital gains tax recently but that law didn't pass or did it? There are a few options to pick but they all have a catch... But guess what, maybe Switzerland is exactly what you are looking for... if you are rich enough. Or Monaco. Switzerland has that "lump-sum tax" for the rich people but you'll have to live in a unpopular canton... Minimum tax you'll have to agree to though is about half a million a year. If you pay that, the Swiss gov don't care how much you make a year. Could be trillion usd a year, they won't care. Monaco is much simpler... Life is expensive, zero wealth tax, zero capital gains tax, zero personal income tax. I did lots of research on all of those a while back. They all have a catch. There is no free meal anywhere. Cryprus is not bad too... as long as your company don't keep no more than €100k in their bank account... After doing all that research I concluded... Turkey is still the best

The problem is the language, that would be a huge setback for all of us. English is so much easier. For taxes Germany could be interesting indeed: although the capital gains tax is about 25%, Bitcoin is mostly tax free. But I don't expect that to last, and I wouldn't be surprised if they change that faster than I can learn German. Bulgaria was just an example based on tax levels, it's not something I consider. I've never even been there. Considering how unique this tax is in the world, I don't expect any other country to follow any time soon. It's just too crazy. Of course we're discussing this at home, but I'd also like a fresh perspective. I'm looking for a completely legal action, not something that can backfire later. That's just something Lauda made up It did pass the Tweede Kamer, it's still "delayed" in the Eerste Kamer. I wouldn't be surprised if they're just trying to delay the decision, and I can't wait until it's too late to move out of the country. If I'd be rich, I wouldn't worry about this tax This is a tax on middle class, that will long-term turn middle class into lower class. And again: the language will be a problem. I'll need to add a few zeros to my wealth before even considering Monaco

If it was me, I'd make my starting point the Human Freedom Index. Here are the top 20 countries from there: Switzerland Denmark New Zealand Ireland Luxembourg Estonia Finland Czechia Netherlands Australia Iceland Canada Sweden Taiwan US Norway Germany Portugal Japan UK Of those, I think that Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and the US seem most promising for you. I live in the US, and it's a good place to live. You could choose whatever population density you want: from an abandoned forest in Alaska, to a European-style city. And you'd have access to the financial heart of the world, with a low tax rate. (And even after the Republicans are out of office, I don't expect massive tax increases.) Unfortunately, the immigration system is an utter mess. You could probably do it with an E-2 visa, but especially for a family, I'm sad to say that it's probably safer to go with a different country. Maybe you might try applying for the green card lottery just in case you happen to win.

Outside the EU you should be good. Anyway a LTC or LLC would suit you best, as you won't be liable personally. The 3rd world is more like, you say what you wish to pay in taxes.

It's a smart move. But I'd be curious to see Satoshi's expression (probably very similar to the famous Dorian Nakamoto meme) if he knew that users would have to pay taxes for owning bitcoin, i.e., cryptocurrency created free from the traditional financial system and regulatory influence. With such exorbitant taxes, it would be best not to disclose your cryptoassets to the regulator at all (but it seems that this advice is no longer relevant for you). I like this law: no matter what happens, the user still pays.   With such a tax, it turns out that it makes no sense (because it is unprofitable) to own a bitcoin, and for Dutch citizens (those who are unable to change their tax residency), I believe it will be more profitable to sell bitcoins before 2028. Therefore, there is no other option but to dispose of the asset (at a profit) before taxes have to be paid. All this complicates the move. But it doesn't make it impossible. When moving, will have to sacrifice something (depending on the country). To Mars, to follow Elon. For only there will BTC-enthusiasts find true freedom. To the Philippines. Starting in 2028 (the exact moment it's time to leave the Netherlands), they'll be implementing a crypto-asset tax system, meaning ownership will be completely legal. The Philippines doesn't apply a special capital gains tax regime to cryptocurrencies. Profits from cryptocurrency are generally treated as ordinary income. For individuals: Income from trading, staking, mining, receiving payments in cryptocurrency, or playing play-to-earn games is generally treated as ordinary income and is taxed at a progressive rate, ranging from 0% to 35%, depending on total annual income. There is a caveat for long-term investors: if you held assets for more than 12 months, only half of the net gain is taxed. Transactions considered taxable: - Selling cryptocurrency for fiat (Philippine pesos or other currencies). - Exchanging one cryptocurrency for another (crypto-crypto transactions, if there is an economic benefit). - Using cryptocurrency to pay for goods and services (this is equivalent to the alienation of the asset). - Receiving cryptocurrency as income (remuneration for labor, freelancing, mining, staking). Source: AI Alisa \ yandex. I believe that in your case, this is the last point, i.e. only those cryptocurrencies that you will receive should be taxed (what you already own should not). Moreover, you have already paid taxes for owning crypto in your country. But I think need to take a deeper look into local legislation (and what the regulations will be like from 2028). An English-speaking country, a pleasant climate: sea, sun, tropics, fruits - in short, paradise on earth (with reservations about typhoons and other natural disasters, but it depends on the region), low prices. Well, in general, why not (the Philippines)? I would like to hear comments from users in the Philippines on this matter.

Let's have a look at some English speaking countries: USA: A political mess. That might get better but the exit tax kills the idea completely. It is not the land of the free. It is a prison. Only good for short term visits. UK: Another political mess. They change their prime minister as frequently as people change their underwear. Australia/New Zealand: Snakes, spiders. Very high prices on consumer electronics. If you want to commit suicide, there are easier ways.

Welcome to the ''maybe Belgium isn't that bad'' club! You are right, the capital gain tax here is now only 10%. We were one of the last tax havens in Europe for HODLers. Anyway, there is no wealth tax on most assets. So, you do not have to pay an annual tax just for owning things. As far as I know, many Dutch people have already taken the opposite path, I mean, are coming to Belgium. In Flanders, the language is same, schools are pretty good and the quality of life is much better. As you know, the bad things here are that income taxes are really high. And in good area the cost of rent or housing is skyrocketing. Even then, it is much better than going bankrupt with compound taxes like in NL. Belgium is not in the top 20. We are somewhere in the 30s I think. But for a Dutch family it is still one of the smoothest moves, 30-60 min commute possible if he is from southern part. US/Canada/Australia/NZ look great yeah. But family with kids factor makes immigration and settling a lot heavier.

Well one thing I can't be envious of Netherlands I'm surprised a country can sacrifice future benefit because they are desperate of short term gains. Sadly they might push the Exit tax to box 3 before this outrageous tax is implemented To curb emigration. Have a friend that resides in Portugal and the standard there isn't bad But it's EU anything can happen. There's no assurance something similar wouldn't happen (well every country can't be mad). Moving really isn't easy. It's like starting life all over again I would have said you should watch if there would be better amendment or re-branding But they thought and pushed it meaning if not now, it would definitely happen.

The Western civilization is collapsing under its own weight. That's what's happening... China is everywhere, manufacturing almost everything for the rest of the world but the west still try to live the life they see in the movies. but that's another topic. People often think starting over in some other country will fix everything but it is usually the opposite and it brings more problems than what it actually solves. I am pretty sure there are clever ways of "legally" evading taxes even in the Netherlands but these ways probably involve setting up a corporate with a meaningful business income. There are a few countries where personal income don't get taxed at all but then almost all of them fucked their citizens/tax residents over at least once in the past and that's why they offer these nice deals. By buying that zero personal income tax package you are also buying a huge risk. The risk is, they can fuck you over, again, when they feel like it. In reality, a middle class person don't really much of a choice. Nowhere to run really. Even escaping is for the rich. I remember Peter Schiff was endorsing Puerto Rico not so long ago. They seized his bank (Euro Pacific Capital) there. Literally fucked him out of it.

Well, first of all, as you can imagine, I’m against this measure proposed by a bunch of morons who only care about raking in money without having a fucking clue how the real world works—and who end up causing the exact opposite of what they claim they’re going to do. In other words, tax revenue for the wealth tax is going to go down. We’ve already discussed this in a thread in the Legal section. If, as I imagine, you still have family and friends in the Netherlands, the option I’d choose is Belgium—it’s right next door, and you can go back and forth whenever you want. To be a tax resident in a country, you generally just need to physically spend half the year there, so you could go visit family on weekends, for example. Moving from the Netherlands to Belgium is like moving from one city to the nearest one in a larger country. Plus, you are part of the Benelux—the birthplace of the EU—where people usually speak several languages, and as you say, there wouldn’t be much of a language barrier. Could there be some drawbacks? Sure, but every option has them.

I live in the EU and in one of those top 5 'human freedom index' countries theymos lists and I have bever paid TAX on my Bitcoin or crypto dealings. Without spending too much researching again about tax liabilities from Bitcoin in the EU it was my understanding that Portugal was the most 'crypto' friendly EU country to reside. https://www.globalcitizensolutions.com/portugal-bitcoin/ I will send the OP a pm later with a suggestion 🤔

I don't know things turn bad like this in Netherlands. The nation quickly appears in my mind is UAE but likely you don't like nations in the Middle East. In language, likely English is used common in the UAE as they are a hub of many bitcoin and blockchain conferences and are very friendly with the rich from around the world. From these articles, I feel like some promising nations for you like Singapore and Switzerland. Switzerland was recommended in some above posts but nobody mention about Singapore. https://www.globalcitizensolutions.com/crypto-tax-haven/ https://citizenx.com/insights/crypto-tax-free-countries https://www.lowtax.guide/best-for/zero-tax In any accident, the rich are more quickly adaptive and can escape faster and more easy than the poor or the middle class because they have more money that makes things more easily.

Looking at the world map on that site confirms what I expected: I'll probably like Western countries most. I'm surprised to see Ireland so far up that list. That's EU, so legally moving is easy, but I find the English accent there to be the most difficult there is, the housing market is crazy, and locals aren't very happy with the massive numbers of migrants already. Canada also seems to have lost a lot of it's laid-back image, at least from what I've seen online. But I've never actually been there. New Zealand has other complications (which are too personal to discuss here), although I love the country. As a tourist, I liked New Zealand more than Australia. My wife keeps saying she wouldn't like the working hours in the US. That's actually something really nice. I prefer small villages over big cities, but with kids in school age, it shouldn't be too remote. Looking at it from this side of the Atlantic, the US has lost much of it's "country of unlimited possibilities" image, and that's even when I try to ignore the generic "Republicans bad, Democrats good" in national media here. That would make it impossible to use your money legally in the (far) future. The same tax applies to all investments and savings. The only way not to pay taxes is by not making any "profit", and in that case, inflation will still get you in the long run. I mentioned a tax on unrealized gains, but realized gains will be equally taxed. I'll limit my "quest" to first world countries, I wouldn't want my kids to grow up surrounded by poverty. And again: the language. I thought the "everything is trying to kill you" is limited to Australia, not New Zealand. I didn't expect this. A quick check: a Samsung TV that costs €700 here would cost €1100+ in New Zealand. But I don't buy enough TV's per decade to worry about this. That's a nice way of putting it From what I've seen online, many Dutch people are now considering taking this step. I expect houses in Belgium to be cheaper (and/or bigger) than houses in the Netherlands, so this isn't on my list of concerns. On the other hand, the way Western Europe is "developing" now, I don't see a very bright long-term future here for my kids. Politicians don't extrapolate their policies into the far future. The short term gains are "theirs", the long-term consequences are someone else's problem. That's not possible: in box 3, you pay your taxes annually. There are no untaxed gains to be taxed later. I've seen Portugal mentioned as a good place to live of Bitcoin many times, but again: the language I've looked into the "box 2" route, and that solves the problem of paying tax on unrealized gains, but the tax is still quite high and it adds more admin to deal with. I don't think the added complications are worth it: government can change the rates at any time again, and might even add an exit tax to "box 2" in the future to avoid capital from moving out. That's why I'm not looking for a country without any taxes. I'm trying to find a reasonable place where we don't get drained by taxes, while still good enough to raise a family. Thanks, I hadn't seen that thread yet. I created a long post in it. The physical moving may be like just moving to another city, but the paperwork involved is just as real as moving to any other country. I don't think "Benelux" has any meaning left. That narrows it down to 3 possibilities In a legal way? If so, do tell! That doesn't work with the language.

I was going to joke that you should move to Spain – for the climate, the paella and all that – but, on a more serious note, I’m not surprised it doesn’t even feature as an option. On top of the problems you already have, you’d have a government rife with corruption, legalising immigrants at breakneck speed so they’ll vote for them, rising crime rates, and there’s already a wealth tax – I wouldn’t be surprised if they wanted to raise it in the future to mirror the Dutch model, and so on. Ultimately, it’s a very personal decision. I suppose that once you’ve gone to all the trouble of moving and sorting out the paperwork, you’d opt for a combination where your money is treated better and it’s relatively safe. I can see that the language – the fact that English is spoken – is important to you too. I suppose what I’d do is rule out the options one by one and settle for the least bad one, as the ideal scenario would be for that law not to be implemented after all, so you could stay where you are.

I would suggest coming to the US. You can get a Trump Gold immigration card for $1m per person to get a permanent green card. If that is out of your price range, you could potentially try to find work in the US, and get your new employer to sponsor an H-1 B visa. Unfortunately, much of the Western world has regressed in terms of freedoms in recent decades, particularly in Europe. Many governments are run by far-left liberals, so I would not rule out any kind of wealth tax in the future for those countries. Look at the UK, for example, where people routinely get arrested for social media posts. If you are strictly concerned about tax policy, that information is easily available via Gemini and/or the internet. From that perspective, the Middle East is probably your best bet. Although there is a real risk of geopolitical violence via Iran.

If I'd be rich enough to pay $1m for an immigration ticket, I wouldn't worry about Dutch taxes. Taxes here are for peasants like me only. It does indeed feel like a "cash grab" from government. They see a pile of money, but don't realize the total savings of the entire country are less than government spends in just a year. Lol. I'm not moving to the Middle East with my family.

Hihi, this is just sooo funny, brutality level 100 from Switzerland  Reading through your replies, it starts becoming actually pretty simple - 1st world countries, this narrows the list by a ton, we get rid of almost two continents - language barrier ( if not Dutch, then English; well, we got rid of parts of Europe, Japan, Sk, and any more) - no fiscal paradises that require you to buy a 3 million apartment and have 500k in a bank like Monaco and others, and we erase Curacao also, right? So, English, developed country:  US, Canada, Ireland, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Iceland New Zealand bad you said, Australia wants to kill you, USA you didn't like that either plus with the whole immigration thing they will not be the best choice right now, you shot down Ireland also and I have a feeling you're going to do the same for the UK, Iceland will probably be a weird choice so: Canada or Belgium! Unless you're either flexible on your views on the above listed countries, it's either Belgium or you ditch the language criteria.

Belgium is just Netherlands in a different package, Canada is Iceland/Norway in a different package. Nowhere to run. No paradise nowhere. Florida is kind of not bad tho for retirees. At least it sounds good. Who knows what kind of can of worms it is packing. Can't be that bad as long as you don't get the US passport (which is a curse, not a blessing)