I noticed there's not much chatter about this here, so I wanted to ask if anyone's checked out Bitcoin's RGB. It’s supposed to introduce smart contracts like NFTs and tokens to the lightning network. If you're curious, there's some info available to read.
The GitHub repo seems to be getting updates, but I'm not clear if they've moved beyond testing or if there are any live projects using it yet. What do you all think? How significant could this be for Bitcoin?
Their GitHub repository[1] also contains lots of resource (mostly PDF slide and video). But personally i only check concept PDF slide[2] and part of their FAQ[3]
[1] https://github.com/LNP-BP/presentations
[2] https://github.com/LNP-BP/FAQ/blob/master/Presentation%20slides/RGB%20%26%20Spectrum%20explanation%20for%20business.pdf
[3] https://www.rgbfaq.com/
While there are many parts i don't understand, there are few over-estimated promises/offer. For example (on concept PDF slide page 13),
1. Zero storage cost is simply impossible when you utilize Bitcoin blockchain (to store the smart contract state).
2. Extreme scalability is limited by Bitcoin network and Lightning Network channel/routing.
Talking about impact, it heavily depends on availability of user-friendly software which support RGB (and related protocol such as Spectrum). But assuming it's available, IMO it has similar impact with LN.
I am with you there.
I tried to get though all the links and documents and slides and such and I could not follow a lot of it1.
But, it really looks like there is going to be a long time between here and there. Not saying that it's a bad thing, just that for now I put this firmly in the category of vaporware. Will be interesting to see when and if it really comes into existence.
-Dave
1 I have a bunch of other things going in IRL so it might be me.
It appears RGB is intended to be a means for users to transact token-like assets (such as USDT, or NFTs), without using tokens the way they are used currently. It also appears that the token-like assets are entirely detached from the issuer once the issuer sends the token-like asset to another entity.
The problem with the above is that what gives a tether token for example value is trust in Tether. If a tether token is completely detached from Tether (the issuer), I don't see why it would be widely accepted as valuable. Further, this setup would also result in counterfeit/fake tokens, and it would be more difficult to detect/spot fake tokens.
@ETFBitcoin @DaveF @PrimeNumber7
There's also an interview by Bitrefill on the subject: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5348319.0
I managed to find BitMask[1]. The "start testing" button is not leading anywhere but you can find find the download link[2] on their Telegram channel/Medium blog. The wallet is developed by DIBA.io (which looks legit[3]? ) although I do find it a bit strange that they claim to be backed by Tim draper, and yet they're not to be found here[4].
I haven't tried the wallet yet, but I'm going to, it looks interesting. Your thoughts on this?
[1] https://bitmask.app/
[2] https://www.bloomberg.com/press-releases/2021-06-14/diba-proper-nft-taproot-ready-at-the-bitcoin-conference
[3] https://dibaglobal.medium.com/testing-bitmask-beta-0-01-88a68f816243
[4] https://www.draper.vc/companies
With USDT, if tether were to decide to not honor 100 USDT that can be linked to a specific output, it would be best for the entire ecosystem if tether had the ability to prevent those specific outputs from being spent to so to prevent someone accepting a token that is de-facto worthless.
So it does make sense for a token issuer to have some oversight over the spending of tokens.
I feel like RGB is a solution in search of a problem while creating an additional problem in the process.
RGBFaq is also not accessible apparently. I'm not sure what happened exactly but you can still access the content of the page from Github: https://github.com/RGB-WG/rgb-org.github.io/blob/master/index.md
I can access RGBFaq normally, it's possible the website was down.
Since there's no discussion on that repository (unless the developer/contributor use different place), it's unintentional and likely no one about this problem.
Prompted by Lightning Labs' announcement of Taro at the Bitcoin Miami 2022 conference, I looked into RGB once more. Mostly to see if this project is progressing and what its current status looked like. After all, I could have given LL the benefit of the doubt - maybe they just picked up a 'dead project', which I'm usually not against in general.
However, as it turns out, the (very small!) RGB development team seems to never have stopped working on this and actually meets bi-weekly online. I've yet to tune into one of those recordings, but they are all public on GitHub.
They now have a pretty good looking FAQ page, packed with tons of information I've not completely sifted through yet.
For the visual learners around here, there is a ton of video material including technical information, various demos, and project development information.
Since I plan to read up on this topics in the next days, if anyone else did that / is planning to do it, I'll be happy to talk about it / discuss when I know more about it!
So with the release of the 0.10v Beta[1] and the increasing amount of projects building on it, I thought it would be a good idea to give this topic a bump.
Here are some projects that may be worth checking or keeping an eye on:
- BitMask[2] by Diba. They made some good progress already, and I could be wrong, but since they're one of bitcoin's conference sponsors, I expect them to make even more progress by the time of the event.
- Iris wallet[3]
- BitDEX/BitGuard (by Area Layer)[4][5]. Nothing has been released yet, but some of their other projects are open-source.
[1] https://github.com/RGB-WG/rgb-core/releases
[2] https://github.com/diba-io/bitmask-core
[3] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5371499.msg61857956#msg61857956
[4] https://github.com/AreaLayer
[5] https://twitter.com/Bitguard_wallet
That's great to see. A standard only goes as far, you do need people to build applications for / on it to really take off.
I don't know that what is currently offered fits any of my needs, so I'm not too motivated to try these out myself, but I'd probably give some of these a try just to use RGB once.
just before the release of RGB v0.10, which represents a milestone in the implementation of smart contracts, the beta version of the official RGB website https://rgb.tech was also launched today
the website is open source and everyone can help to develop it (by making improvements): https://github.com/RGB-WG/rgb.tech
the RGB whitepaper can be read here: https://blackpaper.rgb.tech/
Someone from BitMask's (the RGB wallet that I mentioned above) made this tweet a few weeks back[1] and I would like to know how accurate (on a technical level) is it, and also this statement from RGB's official site:
[1] https://twitter.com/bitgidie/status/1681841204936462336
I admit that I have not fully understood RGB yet. But as you didn't still get an answer from an expert, my (layman) interpretation from what I understood is that it is quite accurate:
RGB doesn't store contract data on-chain. The contract is negotiated off-chain between the parties, and then a regular transaction can be used for state changes (for example, a token transfer). For example, the parties negotiate that if the current token owner spends a certain UTXO, then the token is transferred, according to pre-negotiated rules. On-chain we see the transaction, but we don't know that it is linked to a RGB contract.
Source: RGB blackpaper
However, I can imagine attacks on that scheme, for example someone "doxxing" other contract participants publicly, chain analysis firms participating in contracts only to analyze their history, etc.
I would of course love if someone more knowledgeable can confirm this and/or provide more details (above all about the part regarding zero knowledge), as I consider RGB very interesting.
I'm not sure as to whats the current state of RGB is but I haven't been seeing much lately, but there is another initiative from one of the developers working at the Nervos foundation and it's called RGB++.
The roadmap was released a few days ago and you can see it here: https://twitter.com/ckbcell/status/1763521124741357973
Now we have RGB, Taproot Assets (which copied from RGB) and RGB++ which would confuse average Bitcoiner. Anyway, they also state difference between RGB and RGB++ on older tweet, https://twitter.com/ckbcell/status/1758385778793840652. Although i have more question after reading the FAQ.
RGB++ seems to use the Nervos Network blockchain (CKB), a "PoW & UTXO based chain", which is the first "+", the second "+" being Lightning. So it seems to be basically an altcoin variant of RGB, but it is not independent from Bitcoin but uses both Bitcoin and the CKB chain. It seems not to be an official RFC of this blockchain but an independent application.
I've found a quite good article here at Coinlive explaining not only the differences between RGB and RGB++ but also gives some examples how RGB (the original) works, for example how tokens are transfered over RGB, which is something I didn't found that much easy-to-understand info about (even if it's clear that the article's writer's native language isn't English but that's not a problem).
The main issue RGB++ aims to solve is the "data island" problem. This means that as in RGB almost everything happens offchain (with the exception of ownership transfers), the participants of e.g. a token do not necessarily know the token's global state, but they know only what they store on their own hardware (which is basically knowledge about a partial state derivered from the knowledge of all other users which have interacted with you with a specific RGB contract, such as those having transferred tokens to you).
The idea of RGB++ is thus to store the global state of the token, or at least a part of it, on the CKB chain.
The question I ask however is: isn't the added value of this system compared to a completely altcoin-driven token system quite low? Yes, it benefits from Bitcoin's security for ownership transfers, but it also seem to depend heavily on a less secure blockchain's consensus - and they could run into an inconsistent state, if for example the CKB chain is attacked, but many users have stored parts of the "correct" state (i.e. based on "honest" transactions). From my interpretation the original RGB is "cleaner", because the responsibility to store the correct state is always on the users' side. But again, I'm not an expert on that topic, would really like to hear some expert opinion
After more than three years from creating this thread, RGB is now officially live on the mainnet[1][2].
I think that with Bitfinex being one of the project's developers/backers, and them having plans to integrate USDT, it's just a matter of time until this becomes widely used by other big players (exchanges/wallets).
[1] https://x.com/RGB_Hub/status/1945755470389493952
[2] https://cointelegraph.com/news/rgb-protocol-launches-on-bitcoin-enables-tokenized-usdt-and-nfts